
I wanted to start a thread to continue the conversation we had at the anchor on 10/23. Basically, I asserted that religion evolved like everything else and you asserted that this evolution may have been guided by some higher being. I'd like to put both of these ideas to the test and go out and find some interesting reading on both sides. So, let me throw the first stone...
Fucking aliens, man! Get real!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_Religion#Paleolithic_burials
300,000- first evidence of intentional burial of the dead. Sites such as at Atapuerca in spain, bones of over 32 individuals are found in pit within a cave[14].
130,000 ya, - Neanderthals are burying their dead at sites such as Krapina in croatia[14].
100,000 ya- The oldest ritual burial of modern humans is thought to be from a Qafzeh in Israel. There is a double burial of what is thought to be a mother and child. The bones have been stained with red ochre. By 100,000 years ago anatomically modern humans migrated to the middle east from Africa. However the fossil record of these humans ends after 100kya, leading scholars to believe that population either died out or returned to Africa.[15][16]
100,000 to 50,000 ya- Increased use of red ochre at several Middle Stone Age sites. Red Ochre is thought to have played an important role in ritual.
50,000- Humans have evolved the traits associated with modern human behavior. Much of the evidence is from Late Stone Age sites in Africa. Modern human behavior includes abilities such as modern language, abstract thought, symbolism and religion[16].
42,000 ya- Ritual burial of Man at Lake Mungo in Australia. The body is sprinkled with copious amounts of red ochre. this is seen as evidence that the Australians had brought along with them religious rituals from Africa.
40,000 ya-Upper Paleolithic begins in Europe. There is an abundance of fossil evidence including elaborate burials of the dead, venus figurines and cave art. Venus figurines are thought to represent fertility goddesses. The cave paintings at chauvet and Lascaux are believed to represent religious thought.
11,000 ya- The Neolithic Revolution begins.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
Devils Advocate
I was merely playing devils advocate because I like to see scientists get all riled up when you question the great goddess Evolution. It sometimes seems that people think that it isn't a theory at all, but laws handed down inscribed on stone tablets to Darwin, and to even question is blasphemy! that there could be life more intelligent then humanity is laughable!
here's one famous controversial view
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin
Here's another;
"If the Facts don't fit the theory, change the facts."
-Albert Einstein
Well, if you are going to
Well, if you are going to use Sitchen's work and the Drake equation to actually say something convincing, you are going to have to do a little more then just throw it out there. Bring it on, man. You think you really got something to say? Something convincing?
Bring it.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
In the meantime, I want you
In the meantime, I want you to think about the fact that Homo Neanderthalis and Homo Sapians both separately evolved symbolic burials...aka a spirit world. If you want to claim that there is this "source" that humans draw on, be it collective unconcious or supreme godhead or flying spaghetti monster, then you've got alot of 'splainin' to do.
We've got two homonid species, separately evolving spirit worlds at the same time? Are they drawing from the same source? If so, how do you know? If not, then how is that possible? What exactly "is" the "source" in the first place? Also, and most importantly, what happened to homo neanderthalis' metaphysical reality when they went extinct?
You already know my opinion on this. I think that gods and spirituality are figments of our imagnination. They are important to us now, but when we go extinct, they die with us. There is no afterlife. There is no spirit world. No soul.
Here's some shit that blows the spiritualists stuff out of the water...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene
Guess what? Chimpanzees and Elephants have burial ceremonies. Do you have any reason suspect that their metaphysical reality is the same as ours?
Or maybe it just evolved for the same reason it evolved in us.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
Strange Invitation
All right...before you go venting your Nihilistic scientific frustrations at me lets back up.
1. This was never a discussion about god. You seem to want to turn it into that. I have long since abandoned that level of reasoning and the closest I get to being religious is rereading the Tao from time to time. If you want to better understand the tao go read it...you may find your self pleasantly enlightened.
2. this is about theories, your certitude, and my inherent weak theory nihil-gnosticism. I find that we humans who have not even left our own planet lack even the most basic of available relevant evidence to postulate a theory on cosmology or of life in the universe. we poorly understand our own past and history has 'evolved' as much as religion, and science have.
3. Fetzer outlines in his book Render Unto Darwin 8 evolutionary alternatives:
(EH-1) Life has evolved by means of genetic mutation;
(EH-2) Life has evolved by that plus natural selection;
(EH-3) Life has evolved by that plus sexual reproduction;
(EH-4) Life has evolved by that plus genetic drift;
(EH-5) Life has evolved by that plus sexual selection;
(EH-6) Life has evolved by that plus group selection;
(EH-7) Life has evolved by that plus artificial selection;
(EH-8) Life has evolved by that plus genetic engineering.
Each of these is successively stronger in adding one more causal mechanism to the sets of causal mechanisms posited by previous alternatives. the 'theory of evolution' consists of family's of theories that are not exhausted by these alternatives, since additional hypothesis such as the inheritance of acquired characteristics or other possible mechanisms are available, at least some of which have been taken seriously.
(Fetzer 2007, p.27)
Not having the defense of this position as my profession sadly my rhetoric has dulled since I took my seminars on the Philosophy of science. however need I remind you that your argument boils down to this statement.
"Basically, I asserted that religion evolved like everything else and you asserted that this evolution may have been guided by some higher being"
My only hope would be that you would desist in the usage of the colloquial nomenclature of the phrase "higher being". It is a tired newage gewgaw better left when dealing with the intellectually retarded. (please note the rather anachronistic unpolitical usage of terminology...it would seem language evolves as well)
That said perhaps you could enlighten me as to which of those very causal mechanisms did religion employ to "evolve" "like everything else." Do rocks, atoms, wave/particles of light evolve? Is it impossible, inconceivable, or even too incredible to think that another species more "evolved" than us could have employed EH-5 EH7, or indeed EH-8? We have seen that Nasa has covered up traces of life on rocks retrieved from mars. that makes life on two planets in our very solar system! I am not going to sit here and tell you that YHVH, an omniscient, omnipresent, and all seeing being created human life. if you want that fight go to Mit Romney's campaign site. when an agreed upon theory of evolution has been set in stone then perhaps we can begin making analogies. for that is all you are offering.
I will yield to you that evolution is quantifiable and as a theory seems rather complete. However savagely attacking all those that threaten orthodoxy and stubbornly resist assimilation and repeated onslaughts of proselytizing smacks of bad science and worse... faith or even religion.
Occam's razor is not a suicide pact (quote me on that!)
I am just wondering how much hubris you actually have in your faith in your own understanding of reality. I humbly accept that I will never "know" everything, but at the same time realize that I have a grievous amount left unlearned at my disposal. I revel in the annals of mankind searching out the arcane avenues and tracing the lattice work of weaving spiders. I have read enough of myths to not discount them as mere foolishness. People mocked Schliemann as he searched for Troy, saying that he was chasing myths, but in doing so he helped create a scientific field merely a hundred and thirty years ago. think about that. 130 years! can we really have truly come so far in such a short time?
need I remind you of George Orwell?
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
I would ask you to ask yourself...who controls?
When we had that conversation I was begging a question, and slightly irked at a flagrant interdisciplinary approach between a GENE and a MEME and was attempting to nip this tendency of scientists to say that EVERYTHING evolved. Of course religion "evolved"...anyone who has studied etymology or more than one religion can tell you that. all thought progresses. but your god gene hypothesis is a stretch at this point and far from LAW. The word evolution has become all but divorced from its original semantic meaning, it has become synonymous with growth and progress. And I am sorry to report that we do move forward in the fourth dimension and that is not evolution. before you go looking for new and improved ways to win friends and influence your peers with braver and more "forward thinking" ways to spread the meme of evolution maybe you had better worry about coming up with a universally accepted working definition of the theory.
I mean please can someone please tell me what all this dark matter is and what gravity truly is and stop trying to convert Christians like Crusaders?
hey why not accept Crowley's strange invitation and Do What Thou Wilt? It is not a far river to leap from atheism.
"If the Facts don't fit the theory, change the facts."
-Albert Einstein
Well, it seems like I'm not
Well, it seems like I'm not the only one that can get a little riled up... ;)
Here's to flipping that little paradigm on its head.
Now, onto a couple of things...
1. I think we mostly agree, but I tend to jump a little harder then you do on most things.
2. Regarding your point one. When one talks about the origin of religion and its subsequent evolution, how can one not talk about the nature of gods, godesses, spirits, souls, etc? My point that neanderthals had developed a metaphysical reality and the fact that it went extinct sheds some light on this nature. These aspects are parts of our psychology. They are not physical entities of our universe any more then any other pattern of synapses in our mind is.
3. weak theory nihil-gnosticism. Hey, I like that. I initially typed it with capitalization, but went back and changed it. This is a good approach. I strive for this objective, but often end up failing miserably. Just as I think you do. I'm a very pasionate person and I easily get fired up about ideas. It's when those fires burn down low that I'm able to go back and really question.
At least I know that about myself and I'm not so stubborn as to go back and change my mind.
That is not a stab at you btw. Just an observation about me.
4. Perhaps it was a slip of the tongue, but I was quoting you when I wrote higher being. If you didn't mean that, then I will cease to attribute it to you. See point 1 however because I think there is a salient reason for bringing "higher beings" into this discussion.
5. Now, by which mechanism does religion evolve? Good arguments could be made for EH 1-7 with EH - 8 existing as a possibility in the future. Here's my problem, you clearly had stronger feelings toward EH 7 and began to lay out why you thought so and I felt that it was a pretty weak argument. If you don't want to talk about the nature of religion or what all of this "gewgaw" really is, that's fine. I will challenge that argument of yours however, partially for fun and partially to learn more about what you think. Sure, its possible that ET somehow influence human evolution, but that doesn't mean that it actually happened. Lots of other things are possible, but never happened. So, why do you think this?
7. Interesting quote..."However savagely attacking all those that threaten orthodoxy and stubbornly resist assimilation and repeated onslaughts of proselytizing smacks of bad science and worse... faith or even religion." I apologize if all of this seems like I'm attacking you personally. I'm just trying to put some of your ideas on the spot. Maybe all of this is way to threatening. You clearly have a world view that you've constructed and maybe its been insulated for too long. I'm curious, didn't Fetzer jump on you harder then this? I can't imagine him caring about your feelings that much. I do care, so I'm going to stop this line of rhetoric and just apologize for laying it down a little too strongly.
8. "I have read enough of myths to not discount them as mere foolishness." I don't discount them as mere foolishness. I would just like to see them explained in such a way that does not imply that they are more then what they are.
9. "I would ask you to ask yourself...who controls?" This is another discussion entirely. Who indeed? And how much? Perhaps you can disabuse me of this notion, but I feel that you seem to at least have an idea of who and how much. We should put test out some of these notions lest they remain unexamined for too long and turn into your own personal dogma.
10. "When we had that conversation I was begging a question, and slightly irked at a flagrant interdisciplinary approach between a GENE and a MEME and was attempting to nip this tendency of scientists to say that EVERYTHING evolved." Define irked. What exactly "irks" you about the assertion that everything evolved? Other people that I have debated have said that it is "too reductionistic" for their tastes. You've said yourself that you think that evolution is a complete theory, so why not extend it over the entirety of human existence?
11. Please call me if I really pissed you off, because I will immediately apologize. Continuing this discussion is not worth that IMHO.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
Questions...
You make mention of the questions who? And how much? But there are many other questions. I'm sure this is not news to you -- tracing archeological and genetic histories indicates you've likely mastered elementary ed. -- but I feel that any theory or hypothesis should be filled-out, so to speak.
Who controls the universe, or how much, would be magnificent knowledge to receive. I would gladly welcome anyone with hard evidence of such things. Even knowledge of how it's done (which I think we, as a species, have been trying to figure out) would be fascinating. But there is also what, and where, and when? Less impressive, I suppose, but do we know anything that is not relative to our own position within this reality? Nothing comes to mind.
Another question remains, and it's a doozy. WHY? Why is the one that would pretty much sum up all the others, for it would provide ultimate relativity. I guess that's a form of god if you like that word. Why is the question I think that gene evolved to wrestle with. Why is likely what drives the masses to the prevailing faith of the day. We are, and will likely always going to be, furthest from the answer to this question. Being okay with that concept, and the possibility that there is no "why", that would be an interesting evolution.
Don't you think?
Those who dwell in a world of expectation will...